Factory turbo or plus T

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Chrismx5
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Factory turbo or plus T

postby Chrismx5 » 10/09/13 @ 16:14

Hey guys,

As this isn't strictly a Miata phorum, I have decided to start this thread/argument.

I get a lot of shit here in NZ for having a Plus T Nissan Silvia.

Why? Well, as everyone knows (Most people in NZ are fairly clueless) a plus t setup will grenade..

Bull shit. At least that is my thought.

Yes - they have a higher compression ratio, don't run as much boost/do the correct modifications to allow you to run the correct boost.

What are your thoughts?
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby andy » 10/09/13 @ 16:18

when you say plus t are you referring to an aftermarket turbo or is there a model called plus t?

In my opinion I generally do not like turbos on cars unless the factory did it. MSM being the exception as Ben (concealer(swank force one)) pointed out to me.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Chrismx5 » 10/09/13 @ 16:21

Ahhh

Okay, I will use the Silvia as an example.

Nissan made two (for basic terms) engines for the S14

The SR20de and the SR20det (Turbo)

meow, what I have on mine is a SR20de (So it was originally a N/A engine) with a turbo setup slapped on the side.

Much the same as 90% of turbo miatas.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby spitefulcheerio » 10/09/13 @ 16:23

Factory turbo > aftermarket turbo most of the time. I like factory turbo cars cause they already have the built in turbo provisions. It's easier to modify/increase hp/increase boost on a facotry turbo car than it is to slap a turbo on a factory N/A car.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Sploinkin » 10/09/13 @ 16:26

I've heard from a local 240sx guy that turboing a KA engine is useless and you should go with SR20 instead. mk2tmr2 has his NA+T 2jz Lexus GS300 (IIRC) that blew up running some low boost. I think most NA engines probably won't like being boosted for too long, and anyone who does that will turn the boost up anyway. Just an excuse to rebuild it better I guess.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Chrismx5 » 10/09/13 @ 16:27

That's the problem with a lot of people that turbo previously N/A engines..

They decide to run the same/similar amounts of boost through the plus t'd engine..
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Swank Force One » 10/09/13 @ 16:51

Sploinkin wrote:I've heard from a local 240sx guy that turboing a KA engine is useless and you should go with SR20 instead. mk2tmr2 has his NA+T 2jz Lexus GS300 (IIRC) that blew up running some low boost. I think most NA engines probably won't like being boosted for too long, and anyone who does that will turn the boost up anyway. Just an excuse to rebuild it better I guess.



Your local 240sx guy is a moron. KAs will handle 350ish whp reliably if set up halfway correctly. The problem is that most people don't. KA > SR20 any day of the week.

Mk2tmr2 had some other issue going on. The 2jzge (non turbo) is well documented to handle 700whp+ if tuned/set up well, assuming a healthy motor. He wasn't even close to approaching that power.

However that said, with the case of the MSM being a rare exception, i'll start with a turbo car any time i'm given a choice.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby andy » 10/09/13 @ 16:53

I dont know. Me personally there are some cars I would rather opt out of the turbo all together.

I would much rather have a na rotary engine than a turbod one.
I would also prefer a non turbo subaru baja than a turbod one.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Sploinkin » 10/09/13 @ 16:57

Swank Force One wrote:
Sploinkin wrote:I've heard from a local 240sx guy that turboing a KA engine is useless and you should go with SR20 instead. mk2tmr2 has his NA+T 2jz Lexus GS300 (IIRC) that blew up running some low boost. I think most NA engines probably won't like being boosted for too long, and anyone who does that will turn the boost up anyway. Just an excuse to rebuild it better I guess.



Your local 240sx guy is a moron. KAs will handle 350ish whp reliably if set up halfway correctly. The problem is that most people don't. KA > SR20 any day of the week.

Mk2tmr2 had some other issue going on. The 2jzge (non turbo) is well documented to handle 700whp+ if tuned/set up well, assuming a healthy motor. He wasn't even close to approaching that power.

However that said, with the case of the MSM being a rare exception, i'll start with a turbo car any time i'm given a choice.


I guess I should have finished that guy's comments. SR20DET hp is easier to get than a stock single cam KA+T
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Swank Force One » 10/09/13 @ 17:00

Single cam KA


Well there's your problem. :P

Dual cam KA = beast mode. Dude i share my shop with had a built KA in his S13 drift car. He previously ran a stock KA + turbo for 4 years drifting it, making 347whp the whole time. Motor was still good when pulled. Built motor was making just under 600whp, and was spooky scary fast. Lasted 2-3 years of drifting before he sold the car. This is just on a chipped ECU. o_O
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby andy » 10/10/13 @ 00:37

I would take the advice of Swank Force. He knows a thing or two about engine boosting.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Chrismx5 » 10/10/13 @ 16:04

This wasn't an advice asking thread Beatles.

Simply an opinion thread.

For me, plus T is a good way to go, when set up properly, you have a good car.

The problem is morons that don't set them up properly and grenade their shit.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Crazyblackman » 10/19/13 @ 02:37

I feel like you can honestly do either or option ... Really depends on what you want to run..

Turbo fine, know the car, do the maintenance and work, make sure your happy with it. And you know what to expect

Or na while it will take more money to make a na motor faster, you gotta ask is speed what you want or do you want to almost set it and forget it for a while
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Mazduh » 10/19/13 @ 13:39

Just because it's turbocharged from factory doesn't necessarily mean the motor is built for it. Point in case, the msm. All it is is a 99 motor with a turbo slapped on and no vvt. Mazda did a dodgy job tuning the ecu and the actual intake setup and ic piping etc is very poorly designed. The msm feels half-assed if you ask me. It was a last hurrah before the NC. Typical Mazda building something that could be potentially amazing and hinting at what they "could" do. But never actually phollow through on.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby TrueSpin » 10/20/13 @ 11:35

If the car is put together properly and the additional needs of boost are met, there is virtually no difference in reliability between the factory boosted platform and the aftermarket boosted platform. You will get some wonkiness from making such drastic changes if you are still using the factory N/A computer, but ultimately the differences are not that great.

An engine built to be N/A will likely have higher compression than a factory turbo engine. More power is available for the same amount of boost.

I daily drive a supercharged Miata that I put together myself. It sees redline and full boost literally every time I get in it and there are no issues with the powertrain, short of a wonky idle as I am still using the factory ECU.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby spitefulcheerio » 10/20/13 @ 12:41

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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby PHEOX » 10/24/13 @ 22:23

Mazduh wrote:Just because it's turbocharged from factory doesn't necessarily mean the motor is built for it. Point in case, the msm. All it is is a 99 motor with a turbo slapped on and no vvt. Mazda did a dodgy job tuning the ecu and the actual intake setup and ic piping etc is very poorly designed. The msm feels half-assed if you ask me. It was a last hurrah before the NC. Typical Mazda building something that could be potentially amazing and hinting at what they "could" do. But never actually phollow through on.

Pretty much this. I love my MSM (miaturd btw, on IG), but that's with bolt ons and I still get pissed about the factory tune everyday. I can't even drive the car cold because of it's horrible boost cut. Have to wait 5-10 minutes before I leave in the morning or when I leave school, while the motor gets to temp.
Good facotry set ups though? My stepbrothers WRX is pretty snazzy, and has 198,000 miles on the motor, without a rebuild, and it pulls hard all day.
The GT86 has been a good example of what can be done with a higher compression motor with a turbo strapped on it, when it has a reliable tune. Makes good power, doesn't seem to blow up. Pretty much everything is in the tune on any turbo car.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby mk2tmr2 » 10/25/13 @ 08:46

Who care what people think? Do what you want.

NA-T is always risky. I had even lowered the compression on my 2JZ and it put a rod through the block with just 12psi. Yes it was due to other issues completely unrelated to the turbo. But it wouldn't have happened without boost. The turbo revealed the engine's weak link.

My black Miata had a supercharger at 12psi for years and years and was perfect the whole time. It is just a roll of the dice with NA-T setups even if you do everything right.

I love my GS. But if there was a GS that came with a turbo from the factory I probably would have preferred to start with one of those.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby DaleNixon » 10/25/13 @ 20:49

Wasn't the BP designed from the ground up to be turbo'd? I know you have less margin for error in tuning as the engine evolved over the years and the compression went up.

In response to the OP's question: It'll probably last if you tune it conservatively and don't run 2 billion PSI at 13:1 AFR.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby bigx5murf » 10/26/13 @ 00:00

My friend's boost gauge has a little explosion icon between 20-25psi. I think this should be standard.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby spitefulcheerio » 10/26/13 @ 08:34

DaleNixon wrote:Wasn't the BP designed from the ground up to be turbo'd? I know you have less margin for error in tuning as the engine evolved over the years and the compression went up.

In response to the OP's question: It'll probably last if you tune it conservatively and don't run 2 billion PSI at 13:1 AFR.


The BP was a turbo motor at first, yes.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby john90 » 10/26/13 @ 09:52

I thought the BP and B6 were both designed as turbo engines before making their way into the miata.

Coming from the Mustang world I didn't even know this was an issue, I have plenty of friends that have and are running turbo and superchargers on their cars very safely, but they have been well tuned. I think as long as you know your engines limits and are realistic with your goals there shouldn't be a problem
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby spitefulcheerio » 10/26/13 @ 10:06

They both were. You are correct sir.




Tune your shit and you'll be fine. I just think it's easier and cheaper to increase boost / make more power on a factory turbo motor (at least to a point)
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Tom550 » 10/31/13 @ 13:28

I had a turbo ka24e for about 1.5 years. It was way too fun until I kept raising the boost. Both sr and ka can be done cheaply and handle boost just fine.
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Re: Factory turbo or plus T

postby Skinny » 10/31/13 @ 13:31

Import a US KA24 and blow some minds...


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